In order to effectively prepare for the future of work, it’s critical that we—as individual learners and learning providers—truly understand the types of skills that will be necessary to succeed.
Jerel Bonner, a ‘human behavior awareness’ consultant and co-founder of Coralling Chaos, really walks the walk when it comes to continually learning to adapt and evolve to meet the demands of the future. And recently, the TEDx speaker and author of Sharpening China’s Talent, has been very focused on the fascinating connection between learning and the concept of flow.
Returning for his second interview on the Podcast, Jerel joins Jeff at Leading Learning Global Headquarters to discuss the idea of flow and its connection to learning, as well as how it relates to other major concepts including grit, mindset, and authentic happiness. They also talk about why this is all going to be increasingly important in helping others prepare for the future of work—and life.
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Listen to the Show
Read the Show Notes
[00:18] – A preview of what will be covered in this episode where Jeff interviews Jerel Bonner.
And make sure to check out our first interview with Jerel, Becoming the Knowledge Worker, an episode that actually made the top ten in 2018.
Tips to Find Info on Leading Learning Site
That also raises a quick point we’d like to make before turning to the conversation with Jerel. Namely, we’ve now published more than 200 episodes of the podcast, all of them containing information that may be helpful to you in your day-to-day work. So, we want to make sure you know you can find a link to the full list of episodes by visiting leadinglearning.com/podcast.
On that page you will also find a list of some of the most popular episodes organized into categories.
Finally, there is a search box on every page of the Leading Learning site that can help you find information in the podcast episodes as well as in the many other articles and resources that we’ve published. All in all, these are great tools to support you in your continuing “flow of work” learning needs.
Reflection Questions
[02:39] – You might consider the reflections questions below on your own after listening to an episode, and/or you might pull the team together, using part or all of the podcast episode for a group discussion.
- When is the last time you can recall being in a state of flow, and what got you there? How might you replicate that process in the future?
- How much do you know about what puts your learners into a state of flow? That will vary a great deal, of course, from individual to individual, but are there any commonalities across the types of experiences that put your learners into flow?
It’s probably worth noting that this involves what many learning businesses don’t do enough of—getting out there and talking with their learners. That may be something you want to get into your plans for the coming months.)
[03:45] – Introduction to Jerel.
Flow
[04:46] – You have been focused lately on a topic where the pieces have sort of fallen together for you in how you think about learning—something you describe as flow and specifically about behaviors for success and happiness. To begin, what is learning flow and why are you focused on it?
Jerel clarifies that he’s actually not focused on learning flow but rather teaching people to learn flow. And the reason he’s not focused on it is because he’s actually figured out how to do it and has been doing it for many years.
He describes how he recently started reading one book after the other from the masters of happiness and success, namely, Carol Dweck, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, Angela Duckworth, and Daniel Pink’s Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us—make sure to check out our interview with Daniel Pink.
He says the big anchor for him was when Csikszentmihalyi (author of Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience, Creativity: Flow and the Psychology of Discovery and Invention, and Finding Flow: The Psychology of Engagement with Everyday Life) said that if you really want to get into the flow, the best way to do that is to really challenge yourself. And the best way to challenge yourself is to be learning new skills.
Jerel explains that many times we hear of athletes “in the zone”, so flow is another way of saying that. It means you’re very competent, your unconscious mind is doing all the things you know and learned to do without having to think it, and you’re absorbing the challenge, knowing it’s going to be successful. You’re also feeling a little bit of anxiety because you don’t really know what the outcome will be but you’re totally happy and content and nothing distracts you.
[07:50] – And from what I can gather, you really see learning as a path to being in flow?
Jerel notes that he’s not talking about orthodox learning, like sitting in a class. This involves being open to learning and new opportunities. He shares an example about his personal experience with this that involved a different level of learning.
[09:16] – So when you’re doing that, at some point (maybe in reflection) you become aware that you’ve gotten into a state of flow yourself?
Jerel says that because of how he’s wired and the “modules” he’s gotten, he is able to combine his leisure time with his productivity time by reading business books because it’s something he genuinely enjoys. And this is part of the way we spend our activities based on Csikszentmihalyi’s content of flow. So two of the three things he’s doing when he’s reading are related to being happy and his success.
He notes that if you just have a job (only for money), you’re not going to get into flow. However, if you’re thinking about your career, there’s going to be more opportunity to move into flow.
When you work for purpose and passion, you’re going to be into flow much, much more. And the more you’re in flow, the happier you’ll be.
Motivation and Flow
[10:59] – It seems to me there’s definitely a connection between motivation and flow—and we’ve talked on the podcast before about motivation (see our episode, Exploring Motivation and Learning).
This is because to learn effectively, you have to find your motivation and your learner’s motivation. You seem to have come naturally to recognizing the importance of flow and when you’re in a state of flow, but I suspect that most of us could probably spend more time reflecting and identifying those times when we were in flow. So, what gets us into flow? And then even mapping back from there to our underlying motivations?
Jerel explains that the motivation comes from wanting to be happy. So, knowing the more you can get into a flow state, the happier you’ll be. And to get into a flow state, you need to learn something.
He says this goes back to the idea of questioning whether to work for a paycheck or for purpose and passion. It’s noted that particularly for things that require a lot of learning over time to really solve for something complex or to innovate, flow is essential.
Jerel ties this to Angela Duckworth’s, Grit because she explains that if you want to be successful, you have to keep trying for long periods of time. This relates to the concept of the future of work and learning (something we talked about in our interview with Heather McGowan) because you have to learn how to fail and take it in stride to move forward—and this is all connected.
Grit
[14:40] – You’re good at recognizing flow in yourself but how do you know you’ve got grit?
Jerel says he knows he has grit because he’s failed a lot of times and he’s got real patience not to give up. He shares a couple examples of some situations when he lived in China related to trying to get full-time work.
He talks about how the process took months and months, and rather than giving up, he just made sure he had other things going on to ensure he was ok and would be financially stable.
[16:02] – You seem to be good at sort of personally structuring or scaffolding situations so it’s possible for you to have grit—you know you’ve got options so there’s not one point of failure. And this can be demoralizing and demotivating if you feel like everything depends on this one thing, so it can be hard to have grit.
And I say this because for our listeners, a real key to sustaining motivation and getting to that state of flow is to help scaffold the structured learning experiences in a way where grit is possible and seems like a doable idea.
Jerel notes that in Grit, Angela Duckworth quotes Julius Erving (Dr. J) who said that professionals are people that are actually going to get up and do the things they love every day on the days they don’t want to do them—and that’s grit.
Duckworth also quotes Will Smith who said that you’re born with talent naturally but if you really want to be great you have to home in and bang on that talent every day.
And most people – because life happens – don’t do it. However, Jerel says the future of work is not going to let people sit back. If you’re not gritty and not hammering on that skill every day, you’re going to be a C player. You can get through life as a C player but you’re not going to be the next Bill Gates or a Nobel Prize winner.
Happiness
[18:11] – I think a big part of your point is it’s not only about performance and success, it’s also about happiness. Or maybe it’s fulfillment, which can be a little different from happiness. But if you want that, which most people do intrinsically, you have to have the grit.
Related to happiness, Jerel talks about his observation that most people don’t choose the work they do because it’s going to lead to them having a better family life, but rather it’s more about the money.
Overall, there tends to be a general dissatisfaction with work. Jerel shares that anywhere between 60-70% of the workforce is dissatisfied or totally dissatisfied that they’re actually sabotaging the company.
Another stat he shares is that 50% of Americans don’t have $400 for an emergency. So, people hate their jobs and they aren’t doing well economically.
The other stat he saw in the last year is that most Americans don’t take all of their allotted vacation. Jerel talks about how he was able to make sense of this since they don’t have the money (according to stat about money for emergencies), and this is an example of flow.
Mindset
[20:47] – We’ve talked about flow and grit, and the other idea that gets cross-referred with these all the time is this idea of mindset. For ourselves and as learning providers, we need to do what we can to structure experiences that will help people reach flow and have grit.
But when we talk about people being disillusioned in their jobs, potentially in their life and career prospects, so much of that comes back to mindset. And having that growth mindset where you believe you can learn what you need to learn to go where you want to go.
Talk to us a little more about the mindset component of this.
Jerel shares how with his mindset, he’s able to really appreciate how fortunate he’s been in life. And another side of the growth mindset he has is always knowing that if he’s put in front of the right people that want to be enlightened and learn how to overcome some of the challenges, they can really see themselves differently and be motivated.
He reminds us that [here in the U.S.] many of us are actually fortunate to be starting off in a good place so all we have to do is work hard and think of the upside.
Jerel references Martin Seligman, author of Learned Optimism: How to Change Your Mind and Your Life and Authentic Happiness: Using the New Positive Psychology to Realize Your Potential for Lasting Fulfillment.
Jeff and Jerel also discuss the flipside of this and the opposite of the idea of learned optimism—the idea of learned helplessness (and he was a contributor to the book, Learned Helplessness). They talk about how this impacts people no matter where you are on the economic spectrum, and how even those on the fortunate end of it often still have a sense of learned helplessness, don’t have a growth mindset, and aren’t tapping into the grit. And unfortunately, they probably aren’t experiencing flow very often.
These people tend to have a fixed mindset, thinking they can’t learn and don’t want to take risks because of fear of failure. But these people need to stretch themselves because the future economy is not going to be nice to them.
If you’re under 45, and you’re not learning, the future of work is not going to be nice to you.
Jerel says you have to have that growth mindset to continue learning every day—to be a better husband, have a happier life, etc.
See our related episode, Maximizing Learning with Mindset.
The Importance of Unorthodox Learning
[26:16] – You made the point about orthodox learning earlier on. And this is important because it brings up what I see as a significant issue relative to the future of work and learning, in that it’s not going to be about orthodox learning. People keep focusing on education but that’s a formal kind of learning.
And although it’s obviously important, when I look at what’s happening with AI, machine learning, etc., and with cognitively complex professions now, my view is we really can’t educate ourselves fast enough—you can’t sit in a classroom and learn enough knowledge quickly enough to keep up with that.
So it takes a different perspective on learning—the unorthodox learning, true learning—which does mean understanding things like what gets you into flow, how you have the grit you need, and how to have that growth mindset that’s going to get you there. For ourselves and the learners we serve, it’s about helping people tap into that sort of true learning mindset that’s going to be needed to thrive and survive into the future.
Jerel points out that what people aren’t really thinking about is that they aren’t learning how to read, understand, and work with people. He says a machine is never going to be able to sit in front of a person (at least not in our lifetime) and read their feelings or get the social intelligence and social vibe of a room.
So if you can learn how to read people better, how to be emotionally connected to people better, and understand what makes them happy and get them into flow by motivating them to climb up the ladder, then you are going to have skills that people want.
Jeff adds that machines also aren’t going to take risks or experience the world in terms of interacting with human beings.
[31:04] – We’ve tied together some major concepts—flow, mindset, grit, authentic happiness (see below for links to all related books). The thing about this conversation that has been so fascinating to me is that they do all support and feed each other—they’re connected together.
And being able to take all of these concepts and help bring them meaningfully into your own learning and the learning to the people you’re supporting, for me, that is a homerun. We’ll probably never achieve it as teachers/facilitators, but it’s about striving towards that.
Jerel agrees striving for it and just making people aware of it. So reminding them that if they’re up against a challenge and it’s taking them months that they are just being gritty.
He shares about his own positive, growth mindset and how powerful it is to look at something and see the upside potential of doing it, rather than not doing something for fear of failure.
Looking at situations and saying, “The upside potential is…” forces you to then think how you’re going to get there. And that puts you in a learning state which means you’re going to start flowing.
[33:48] – In your previous interview on the podcast, you already answered the question about one of the most powerful learning experiences you’ve had so I won’t ask you that again. But we are at the beginning of a new year. Do you have anything particular you’re doing now or have planned for this year in terms of your own learning?
Jerel says he’s creating some new material for some new work, which is a learning experience. He also shares about a recent experience where he’s had the opportunity to learn on the fly related to owning the space of the work you’re involved with (through his work with the company he co-founded, Coralling Chaos).
Jeff adds that it’s important to always learn from the opportunities in front of you. And that they’re always there if you’re paying attention.
[39:53] – How to connect with Jerel and/or learn more:
- LinkedIn – Jerel Bonner
- Coralling Chaos Website: https://www.corrallingchaos.com
[40:41] – Wrap-Up
Reflection Questions
- When is the last time you can recall being in a state of flow, and what got you there? How might you replicate that process in the future?
- How much do you know about what puts your learners into a state of flow? That will vary a great deal, of course, from individual to individual, but are there any commonalities across the types of experiences that put your learners into flow?
If you are getting value from the Leading Learning podcast, be sure to subscribe by RSS, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher Radio, iHeartRadio, PodBean, or any podcatcher service you may use (e.g., Overcast).
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[42:42] – Sign off
See Also:
Related Podcast Episodes:
- Becoming the Knowledge Worker with Jerel Bonner
- The Future Is Learning with Heather McGowan
- Maximizing Learning with Mindset
- The Surprising Truth About Human Behaviors and Learning with Daniel H. Pink
Related Books:
Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi
- Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience
- Creativity: Flow and the Psychology of Discovery and Invention
- Finding Flow: The Psychology of Engagement with Everyday Life
Daniel Pink
Angela Duckworth
Dr. Carol Dweck
Martin Seligman
The 60-Year Curriculum with Dr. Chris Dede
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