After working three decades for various large, global companies, John Stepper – a self-described “accidental entrepreneur” – began searching for ways to get more out of work and life.
This search is what ultimately led him to create Working Out Loud, an approach to building relationships that helps you achieve a goal by making contributions over time that you make visible to others. Not only does the process increase access to more people, knowledge, and opportunities, but it leads to greater feelings of empowerment, confidence, and motivation as well.
And his book, Working Out Loud: For a Better Career and Life, guides you through the twelve-week mastery program to help you put the approach into practice yourself and then turn that practice into a sustainable habit.
In this episode of the Leading Learning Podcast, Celisa talks with John about the concept of working out loud including its five basic elements, ways it benefits participants, and related common barriers. They also discuss how to set the stage for successfully working out loud and ways to structure the working out loud experience through Working Out Loud circles.
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Listen to the Show
Read the Show Notes
[00:18] – A preview of what will be covered in this episode where Celisa interviews John Stepper, author of Working Out Loud: For a Better Career and Life.
Reflection Questions
[01:35] – You might consider the reflections questions below on your own after listening to an episode, and/or you might pull the team together, using part or all of the podcast episode for a group discussion.
- Are there working-out-loud elements or techniques that might help you activate your learners’ intrinsic motivation?
- How might you make your educational offerings feel more like an invitation rather than an imposition, both at the point of enrollment and throughout the learning experience?
[02:34] – Introduction to John and some additional background about himself.
He describes himself as an accidental entrepreneur and says he worked in big companies for 30 years. In that time, he saw good – and not so good – things that made people enjoy it less and made it much less productive than it might have been. This is what led him to search for a better way and ultimately became working out loud.
Definition of Working Out Loud
[03:48] – What is working out loud? What’s the pithy definition you use for folks who are new to the concept?
John explains that on the surface, it is a method for building relationships that can help you in some way—help you accomplish a goal, help you explore a new topic or learn a skill. At a high level, it’s a kind of networking, but with a twist. This is because the method takes place within one hour a week over twelve weeks in a small peer support group of about 4-5 people.
You each pick a goal in the beginning and week by week, you have different ways that you can contribute to people in your network—not to try to get something, but to deepen relationships with someone. Over the course of the twelve weeks, you will have a bigger network that gives you access to knowledge, experiences, learning, and opportunities. But most people get something more. In this psychologically safe space of 3 or 4 other people over those twelve weeks, what they’re practicing is that they have something to offer—in fact a lot to offer—and the ability to offer it in a wide range of ways.
By the end, John notes that people will say they feel more empowered, optimistic, and that they have a better sense of control over their career or access to new possibilities.
It’s almost this divergence of, on the one hand, it’s a set of very practical skills related to having a goal, finding people to increase the chances of information exchange or collaboration. But deeper down is this more fundamental shift that happens with people as they’re more confident and they realize they have much more to offer than they thought.
Five Basic Elements of Working Out Loud
[06:01] – Working out loud is more than making your work visible, more than simply showing your work. What are the basic elements of working out loud?
John talks about how when he was working at Deutsche Bank, and started with this (around 2010/2011), he thought technology was going to be the answer. They introduced an enterprise social network to the company, which would allow people to make their work visible. But he found this wasn’t nearly enough. Just having a tool and that technical ability wasn’t nearly enough for people because they didn’t know what to share, or how to share, or why.
Because of this, John says he broadened the definition of working out loud to include these five elements:
- Relationships – people are at the heart of working out loud and the point is that we build relationships that not only make us more effective or give us access, but also make us feel better.
- Generosity – the way we build relationships is through contributions over time. This is what builds trust and essential relatedness. John points out that the word contributions spans from offering intention, recognition, and appreciation, to offering visible work.
- Visible work – show what you’re doing, why you’re doing it, what resources have been helpful, what you’ve learned, etc. to be made visible and framed in such a way that it’s not about you or trying to make yourself look good, but in a way that it might be helpful to other people.
- Purposeful discovery – it simply means that you have a goal in mind. You’re not just using tools and sharing just for the sake of it, but it’s purposeful. This is what orients what kinds of contributions you make and what kind of people you want in your network.
- Growth mindset – Based on the work by Carol Dweck, your approach to this is really without expectations. This is simply about small gifts, freely given to other people that, over the course of your network, will lead to a natural benefit to you. (This is something John notes Adam Grant talks a lot about in his book, Give and Take).
See our related episode, Maximizing Learning with Mindset
When you combine these five elements, it allows you to network and to build relationships with other people in such a way that feels much more human and natural. And it doesn’t have any of the negative connotations normally associated with building a network.
Sponsor: Community Brands
[09:19] – If you’re looking to build natural, human relationships with your network, you might need technology to help. For that, check out our sponsor for this quarter.
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Common Barriers to Working Out Loud
[10:17] – You make the point that anyone can work out loud, that the skills and habits required anyone can learn. But that doesn’t mean that people find working out loud easy. What are some of the common barriers or pitfalls, real or imagined, that you see that stop or slow people down in working out loud?
John shares that it’s usually some kind of (internal) resistance in their head that maybe people won’t like what they have to say or offer, that they’ll say something wrong, or get in trouble at work. Over the last five years, John has kept refining the method for the 12 weeks so that people start with a very, very small step.
In the beginning in your Working Out Loud circle, he explains that you have the goal, a potential list of people that you’d like to deepen your relationship with, and the things you’re offering are attention and appreciation. These are universal gifts and things that everyone has to offer and most everyone likes to receive in some way. This is where you start your practice.
See Circle Guide, Week 1: Attune Your Attention to learn more.
Over the 12 weeks, John says you gradually become more comfortable but you have control over what you want to share, how much, and how you do it. This is why people can make different progress at different rates, which is totally ok.
Working Out Loud: A 21st Century Skill
[13:02] – One not exactly barrier that occurs to me is the potential challenge of how to handle working out loud that’s clearly job- or career-related vs. more hobbyist interests? I’m thinking especially with social media. Do you recommend people compartmentalize—e.g., maybe have multiple social media accounts—if their goal is not work-related?
John doesn’t recommend separate accounts but admits he doesn’t have many recommendations for how you should use social media since everyone uses it so differently.
He discusses why it’s ok in something called working out loud and that’s ultimately becoming a training program in workplaces, to choose a personal goal. John says it’s because the underlying point is that people in a circle are building a 21st century skill.
They are building a sense of independence, agency, and agility, where individuals can find who and what they need inside and outside the company, and then earn access to it through a set of steps—and that’s what working out loud is.
But how you learn that skill doesn’t really matter because the circle is just a learning vehicle and whatever helps you show up to the meetings, do the exercises, practice (since this is experiential, social learning), and get through those 12 weeks is worth it because this skill is something you can apply to any goal for the rest of your life.
John adds that the key and the reason people are doing these circles is because they are intrinsically motivated. It’s just a small circle of people, no boss tells them what to do, and there’s no oversight so it’s a safe, confidential space.
Over the 12 weeks he says they tap into concepts in Daniel Pink’s book, Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us. This need for control, competence, and connection that when you tap into, you don’t need a boss to tell you what to do because you’re doing it yourself. That spark, which we often put out in the workplace, is what company’s increasingly want to see in their employees and what gives people a sense of vitality when they have it.
See our related episode, The Surprising Truth About Human Behaviors and Learning with Daniel H. Pink.
The Expansion of Working Out Loud Circles
[17:33] – I read last that there are Working Out Loud circles in at least 60 countries at this point, maybe more. Talk a little more about the circles and how you’re supporting them. I know you have a lot of materials that are freely available, for example.
John shares how the process for Working Out Loud circles evolved and that the reason they spread is because the first company to embrace them was Bosch. He says eventually they had enough circles in Bosch that they started to collect survey data about whether it was helping them and the company, which then convinced their HR/management. And then Bosch just kept spreading it and telling other large, global companies. He says Bosch alone has about 6,000 people in their Working Out Loud community in 50 countries.
Once those people experienced it, some of them told their friends, which has made it spread to even more companies and countries. Now it’s even in ten languages just because volunteers wanted people to be able to experience what they were experiencing so they translated the guides, something John admits he never imagined.
Setting the Stage for Successful Working Out Loud
[20:53] – We’ve talked about barriers. What about the converse? What tends to set the stage for successful working out loud?
John uses Bosch as an example and how they’ve modified and customized the working out loud materials to be about Bosch. And they use that material to now have the look and feel of regular Bosch training (plugged into their onboarding process, account management, and culture programs) as a way to help employees develop new skills and behaviors without feeling like it’s some new thing. Working Out Loud isn’t the headline, rather it’s about offering ways to help you collaborate and build your network at Bosch.
So if you’re a new joiner, you’re exposed to a circle with some experienced employees and you have a goal. Within your 12 weeks, you use Bosch tools and you have a bigger network with people in your circle and you are more connected and more productive in terms of your access to resources than people who have been there for a long time. But you did it in a way that was intrinsically motivated and didn’t feel like “training”—you opted into this and John says this makes a big difference.
He further explains that this is a different approach and one that lends itself to spreading on its own.
[24:47] – Would it be a good thing in your opinion if everyone worked out loud? I’m thinking this could be content overload if everyone is contributing.
John says yes but people shouldn’t just be emitting the exhaust of their daily activities—what they are offering should truly be a contribution to someone. Throughout the 12 weeks, there is much more reflection and empathy practice of very different kinds that helps you identify what it is that you have to offer and how and where to say it. At first, you practice in your circle to get feedback, but you gradually refine your sense of how to communicate better.
John thinks it would be fantastic if more people thoughtfully contributed in such a way that was respectful of other’s people time, how they received it, etc. because it would be constructive sharing of work that mattered, at least to some other people.
He notes that a symbol/icon that people often use when making their own materials related to working out loud is the megaphone, which he says is terrible because if you’re using one, you’re not listening, you’re broadcasting.
In the early weeks of a circle, you aren’t dumping stuff on the internet, rather you are searching for people related to your goal and paying attention to them. You’re cultivating a sense of curiosity and how to use a variety of tools to access people related to your goal. If you can have that combination in a company—both the supply of knowledge and also the demand—John says that’s the holy grail.
Working Out Loud Circles as an Offering of Learning Businesses
[29:06] – Working out loud and the circles are really built around learning—the circles work as structured peer learning. Certainly, learning business leaders and aspiring leaders can use WOL circles for their own professional development. Do you think a learning business might also include WOL circles as part of their own offerings?
John talks about how WOL circles aren’t e-learning or classroom learning and offer social learning over time that includes a range of elements and allows deep human bonds to form at the end of 12 weeks. He shares an example about a Chief Learning Officer (CLO) at Merck and what she’s doing to incorporate circles into existing programs to connect managers across locations and break down silos and to bridge generations or seniority levels while also giving them a sense of connection from day 1.
These are the two lenses that a CLO might have—personally to keep developing and innovating but also then to include it in her portfolio of offerings in the learning academy that provides this concrete human behavioral component in addition to the more traditional programs.
How to Best Structure Working Out Loud Circles
[32:18] – Do you know if the CLO is actually putting the learners into a working out loud circle or is she letting them sort of self-select? I’m wondering (regardless of whether you know what she’s doing) what your thoughts might be, getting back to that idea of intrinsic motivation, how best to perhaps structure it?
John says that to preserve that sense of autonomy, you make it optional.
It’s an invitation, not an imposition.
The approach they try with this is to offer it and get a first wave. Then some number of those people will think it’s great and will tell their friends. So then they do a second wave, and a third wave. And this is how change spreads.
They change ideas and behaviors naturally spread through social networks, and they are just taking advantage of that, making it easy to spread that way instead of through some type of programmatic, rigid way that really steps on intrinsic motivation.
[35:02] – What is one of the most powerful learning experiences you’ve been involved in, as an adult, since finishing your formal education?
John admits that although he loves to read and consume information, it’s very passive. But when he’s been in a circle, it’s that combination of structure, shared accountability, and support in a psychologically safe space that has been the most powerful thing that has gotten him to act.
It’s what also allowed him to think about not working at a big company for the rest of his life, something he assumed he would do. And it’s allowed him to do things he’s not comfortable doing.
[37:46] – How to connect with John and/or learn more:
- Website: https://workingoutloud.com
[39:30] – Wrap-Up
Reflection Questions
- Are there working-out-loud elements or techniques that might help you activate your learners’ intrinsic motivation?
- How might you make your educational offerings feel more like an invitation rather than an imposition, both at the point of enrollment and throughout the learning experience?
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[41:31] – Sign off
See Also:
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